Pittwater Online News

Some Bayview Memories: The Lloyd Family - by Ken 'Sava' lloyd

Some Bayview Memories: The Lloyd Family
by Ken ‘Sava Lloyd’

Dear Alison

Seeing your great article on the old cars etc. owned by Mark Foy in your latest issue, it brought back one of my early memories of my early life. My family, the Bill Lloyds, lived at the Garden Island end of Victoria St, Kings Cross. One of my earliest memories was the attack by the Japanese Mini Subs in Sydney Harbour sinking the ferry Kuttabul with the loss of many Aussie Sailors. Being so close to the action my memories of the action I can only describe it as what is now; the New Year cracker show. Search lights, explosions sirens, very exciting for a five year old boy.

Now this is where Mark Foy becomes involved, My Grandfather Fred was living at La Corniche Bayview which I think was on a few acres owned by the Lloyd family and Fred must of been friendly with Mark Foy. Fred borrowed Mark's Sulky (called a Trap) and with a Taffy Pony set off to Kings Cross, where he picked up my Mother and my Late Sister Elva, Late Brother Bill and myself, and drove us to Katoomba (near Minny Ha-Ha falls).I also think that the house belonged to Mark Foy; it was surrounded by apple trees and was built of roughly sawn hardwood, I can still remember the lovely smell of the wood and the apple blossoms. My sister Elva started school at Katoomba Public.

I have attached a photo of Fred, Elva and Bill and myself in trap and Fred was taking sister Elva to school at Katoomba.  The sulky is the one Fred Lloyd borrowed off Mark Foy.

The Licence is my Grandfather's 1923 Fishing Licence. I have been told by my late Uncle Ross that the Lloyd's used to sail down from Hunters Hill (Sydney Harbour) in a Steam Packet, and spend the week-ends at La Corniche, and enjoy the cooking of Master Chefs The Rainards. My Dad Bill would row his father Fred to Clareville beach and then walk over to the Northern End of Avalon and fish off the rocks into what Dad used to call "The Deep Hole".

Dad reckoned that the best time was when the cicadas were vocal, and then the Snapper were biting. They also got cockles in the mud in the bay North of Avalon - Careel Bay. I have been there with Dad and got them. Buckets full. Grandfather Fred must have had to have a licence.

My Grandfather was Fred Lancelot Lloyd or Brooks-Lloyd, born 1876 to William Frederick and Margaret Henrietta (nee Brooks - married 1871). 

LLOYD—July 5, Darlington, Mrs. W. F. Lloyd, of a son. Family Notices (1876, August 4). The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954), p. 7. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13377743

His fishing licence is dated 1923. There were two Fred Lloyds next door to each other at Church Point - one my grandfather, one my great-grandfather. (See Below)

So they would take their catch back to La-Corniche and the Rainards would do the rest.

 From The Mort Family Album, Image 131. H.Rainaud's restaurant La Corniche, Digital Order No. a1780131, from State Library of NSW: A note scribbled at side of this photograph says " Renaud - after his Restaurant in Macquarie Street - Morts Rooms-Chambers'. 

Visit La Corniche, Bayview

I remember as a young boy visiting my Grandparents at La Corniche, it was as they say in the Real estate trade "Rustic". My Grandparents then moved to Oak St, North Narrabeen. My Uncle Ross built a house up on the top end of the La Corniche Block.

Earlier one of Fred Lloyds' sisters( I think Ethel Daisy, born at Newtown in 1874) married Cedric Williams' Grandfather.

WILLIAMS—LLOYD.—April 21, at Clifton, Burwood, by  Rev. C. J. Prescott, John Williams, jun., of Strathfield,  to Ethel Daisy, eldest daughter of W. F. Lloyd, of Burwood.  Family Notices. (1897, May 8). The Sydney Morning Herald(NSW : 1842 - 1954), p. 1. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14111230 

John Jun. and Ethel Daisy had three children:

32460/1899  WILLIAMS KATHLEEN B              JOHN ETHEL D MOSMAN

23301/1898  WILLIAMS JOHN Lloyd                      JOHN ETHEL D MOSMAN

969/1904  WILLIAMS CEDRIC Moreton             JOHN ETHEL D ASHFIELD

This is the generation of Williams Pittwater may know more about - Cedric M and John L and their father were builders as much as boatbuilders of Pittwater, at bayview. 

Cedric M is the father of Cedric Vincent Williams. Visit: Early Pittwater Paddlers, Oarsmen, Rowers And Scullers: The Williams

Dad and Auntie Maria, Lily and Ross

There was another family of Lloyds in the Warringah area when I was a young bloke. Bert Lloyd was a boat builder and fisherman, and was in Nth Narrabeen SLSC. Whereas my Dad Bill Lloyd was a foundation member of South Narrabeen SLSC where he made a rescue and received an award for bravery. 

After the War he was a fisherman and had his boat and Fishermans shack at Long Reef.  

By the way the Lloyds were Tea merchants (Hanks and Lloyd) and had a shop that became Nock and Kirby's after they went broke. They had coins made for advertising and the last shipment of coins went down with the Dunbar. 

I ended up buying a house at 8 Baroona Ave., Church Point then sold out and moved out here at Gunnedah - that is now 50 years ago. 

I have been so lucky to have enjoyed the beach and the bush. I look forward to your Pittwater Online News weekly as it brings back wonderful memories of my early life in the Warringah-Pittwater area. 

Thanks Alison.    

Sava.

A Few snippets about Sava’s relatives

Hanks and Lloyd was the first in a series of three trade token-issuing businesses owned by members of these two families. The following summary describes the series of businesses.

John G. Hanks joined William Lloyd (probably William Fairclogh Lloyd - earlier identified in this text as A. Lloyd) to open a business at 319 George Street in 1853, which traded as the Australian Tea Mart. In 1855 Hanks and Lloyd issued their first tokens: commemoratives of the opening of the first Sydney Railway in 1855, an excellent publicity opportunity.

Hanks and Lloyd were expecting another shipment of tokens in 1857, but the ship that was carrying them, the Dunbar, was wrecked at the Gap, in the Sydney Heads, on 20 August 1857. Samuel Peek, another token issuer, and his wife Caroline were on board the Dunbar and drowned when it sank. A month later, the Sydney Morning Herald, 28 September 1857 (p.8) reported that the partnership between Hanks and Lloyd had been dissolved on 7 September  He operated at the same location, now known as 478 George Street.

The replacement tokens ordered after the loss of the Dunbar did not arrive until 1858, by which time the company had changed name.

When Lloyd retired in 1866 the new partner's name was included in the title of the renamed business, Metcalfe and Foss. Metcalfe and Foss ceased trading in 1868, but members of the Lloyd family continued in the tea and coffee trade until the 1960s, 'their last shop was in the old Royal Arcade (now demolished).' (May 1988, pp.21-36)

According to Arthur Andrews (Australasian Tokens & Coins), all of Hanks & Lloyd's tokens were struck by W.J. Taylor of London.

Regan, A. (2005) Hanks & Lloyd, Tea & Coffee Merchants, Sydney, New South Wales in Museums Victoria Collections https://collections.museumvictoria.com.au/articles/2014

DISSOLUTION OF PARTNERSHIP.

NOTICE is hereby given, that the Co-partnership heretofore subsisting between the undersigued, John Hanks and William Fairclough Lloyd, carrying on business at Sydney, New South Wales, as wholesale and retail grocers, under the firm and style of " Hanks and Lloyd," has been dissolved by mutual consent.

The business will in future be carried on by John Hanks, on his own account, who will receive all the assets and discharge all the liabilities of the late firm.—Dated this seventh day of September, 1857.

JOHN HANKS.

WM. F. LLOYD. 

Witness—Chas. Thomas,

Solicitor, Sydney.

DISSOLUTION OF PARTNERSHIP. (1857, September 25). New South Wales Government Gazette (Sydney, NSW : 1832 - 1900), p. 1856. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article229174807

NOTICE is hereby given, that by an Indenture of Assignment, bearing date the second day of May, in the year of Our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty, made between William Fairclough Lloyd and Daniel Lewingdon Lloyd, of Wollongong, in the County of Camden, in the Colony of New South Wales, grocers, co-partners, trading under the style or firm of " W. F. and D. L. Lloyd," of the first part; Lancelot Edward Threlkeld, of Sydney, in the said Colony, auctioneer, (Trustee for the purposes thereinafter mentioned,) of the second part; and the Creditors of the said William Fairclough Lloyd and Daniel Lewingdon Lloyd, of the third part; duly executed by the said WiUiam Fairclough Lloyd and Daniel Lewingdon Lloyd, and the said Trustee, in the presence of, and attested by me, Robert Scott Ross, Esquire, a Justice of the Peace for the said Colony of New South Wales; the said William Fairclough Lloyd and Daniel Lewingdon Lloyd, and each of them, did assign all their Estate and effects whatsoever (wearing apparel and necessaries to an amount not exceeding twenty-five pounds only excepted,) to the said Trustee, upon trust, for the benefit of all their Creditors ; and the said Indenture is now lying at the Office of William Hellyer, Esquire, solicitor, No. 84, King-street, Sydney, for inspection and execution by the Creditors of the said William Fairclough Lloyd and Daniel Lewingdon Lloyd.— Dated this second day of May, a d. 1860.

W.F.LLOYD.  D L LLOYD. L E THRELKELD.

Signed in presence of R. Scott Ross, J.P. 

NOTICE is hereby given, that by an Indenture of Assignment, bearing date the second day of May, (1860, May 15). New South Wales Government Gazette (Sydney, NSW : 1832 - 1900), p. 920. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article230042495

William Fairclough Lloyds' Parents; JOSEPH LYON SOPHIA E (nee Lyne)- born 1824 or 1825 at Camperdown, N.S.W.

LLOYD.—October 20, at Prince Alfred Hospital, William Fairclough Lloyd, aged 72 years. Family Notices (1897, October 21). The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954), p. 1. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14098311

LLOYD. — The Funeral of the late Mr. WILLIAM FAIRCLOUGH LLOYD will leave Prince Alfred Hospital, Camperdown, THIS (Friday) MORNING, at 8.30 a.m., for Waverley Cemetery. WOOD and COMPANY, Funeral Directors, Tel., 726, &c. Embalmers, &c.

LLOYD. — The Friends of Messrs. WILLIAM, ARTHUR, and JOSEPH LLOYD are kindly invited to attend the Funeral of their late beloved FATHER, William Fairclough Lloyd, which will leave Prince Alfred Hospital, Camperdown, THIS (Friday) MORNING, at 8.30, for Waverley Cemetery. WOOD and COMPANY, Funeral Directors. Family Notices (1897, October 22). The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954), p. 8. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14122636

Ken's grandparents marriage;

LLOYD—WHEATLEY.—June 19, 1901, at Trinity Church, Strathfield, by the Rev. W. West, Fred L. Lloyd, eldest son of W.L. Lloyd, of Manly, to Katie Wheatley, eldest daughter of Henry Wheatley, of Alexandria. Family Notices (1901, July 6). The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954), p. 1. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14395582

Katie was christened Catherine S.

IN CHAMBERS. (Before Mr. Justice Stephen.)

A SHIRE ELECTION.

Ex parte Lloyd, re Hitchcock and others.

Application was made on behalf of Frederick Lancelot Lloyd for a writ of mandamus calling upon John Gibson, S.M., to hear and determine an application for the ousting of G. W. Hitchcock, J. W. Austin and A. H. Hughes from the offices of councillors of the Shire of Warringah.

It appeared that at the shire election on January 2, 1932, the applicant was an unsuccessful candidate and the three respondents were duly elected. In the printing of the ballot papers the applicant's name was, by mistake, printed as "Francis Lancelot Lloyd." After the election an application was made to the Chamber magistrate at Manly, who issued an order calling upon the respondents to show cause why they should not be ousted. The matter came before Mr. Gibson, S.M., and the point was taken that he had no jurisdiction, as the Chamber magistrate had no power to issue an order under sections 43-44 of the Local Government Act; and that the order should have been made by a stipendiary magistrate sitting in Petty Sessions.

Mr. Justice Stephen agreed with Mr. Gibson, S.M., that the Chamber magistrate had no power to issue an order, and that until a proper order was issued the Court of Petty Sessions had no jurisdiction. The rule nisi was discharged with costs against applicant.

Mr. Sturt (instructed by Mr. A. J. Grant) appeared for the applicant; Mr. A. S. Lloyd and Mr. G. L. Wright (instructed by Messrs. J. W. Maund and Kelynack) and Mr. V. J. Rundell Miles (instructed by Mr. E. R. Mann) for the respondents.  IN CHAMBERS. (1932, May 6). The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954), p. 6. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16861123 

This “Fred” is William Frederick Lloyd is Ken's Great Grandfather and so the father of  “Fred “ Frederick Lancelot Lloyd (1876-1962) Amy Muriel Lloyd (1879-1957) , Millicent A Lloyd , Adele Lloyd , Hilda May Lloyd, Gladys Isabel Lloyd, Sydney Lloyd and Ethel Daisy Lloyd. 

William Frederick Lloyd (1848-1927) must have been quite wealthy at some time (there was a Great Depression in the 1890’s) because he sent our “Fred” to Newington College and the girls to MLC Burwood. I think Amy Muriel was the first pupil at MLC .

He was married to Margaret Henrietta Brooks (1852-1912) the granddaughter of Major George Druitt (1775-1842) Governor Macquarie’ s Chief engineer and builder all the roads from Sydney to Blue Mountains and to North Head. He was also granted land in what is now Mount Druitt, the  Land where Sydney University and the Brewery and Camperdown. Druitt street and Druitt Lane in the centre of the of Sydney are named after him. Margaret Henrietta Brooks was also the Great Granddaughter of Captain Richard Brookes (1765-1833) owner of huge tracts of land in NSW and a fair potion of land in Cockle Bay in Darling Harbour. He was notorious for overcrowding ships full of convicts in his transport ships. 

William Frederick Lloyd (1848-1927) was the son of William Fairclough Lloyd (1825-1897) described in the article as Superintendent of the Government Docks at Cockatoo island. - courtesy of Ken's Cousin Judge Alan Hughes 

The snippets Pittwater Online sent through for confirmation:

Fish are biting freely just now at Towler Bay, adjoining Kurangai Chaise. Parties should bear this place in mind, as the terms are very reasonable. Boats, bait and pilot are included in the first cost. It is necessary, however, that intending parties write to Mr. Lloyd, Pittwater, the proprietor, so as to enable him to hare a boat in waiting at Church Point. FISH OH! (1900, December 19). Sydney Sportsman (Surry Hills, NSW : 1900 - 1954), p. 7. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article167250793

Mr. Fred Lloyd, of Church Point, Pittwater tells Eastway's that he has been with some friends getting lately a wonderful lot of black bream at 'Old Man's Hat,' North Head. Their catches for the week were: Saturday 66- Monday', 57; Tuesday, 9; Wednesday, 18; and Thursday 30, all nice, sized fish.

Mr. P. Horn, of Paddington, fishing at Bay View, Pittwater, last Sunday, caught 4 dozen mixed fish, principally bream, whiting, and flathead, and also a 30 lb .fiddler FISHING NOTES. (1906, March 31).Evening News (Sydney, NSW : 1869 - 1931), p. 2. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article114226163 

This opinion will be endorsed by W. F. Lloyd, of Manly, who found over-ripe Stilton cheese a marvellously seductive bait for two or three reasons. The trouble with most anglers is where to keep the cheese with the gorgonzola flavor. Most anglers' wives have a set on barley about the house. Mr. Ewyny solves the problem by mixing the stuff up and keeping it in preserving bottles. 'When he loses its tenacity, he adds a little flour. ROD AND LINE. (1923, January 14). Sunday Times (Sydney, NSW : 1895 - 1930), p. 12. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article120541610

The 1907 first 'official' Pittwater Regatta, although also a means to attract spenders to Pittwater, also attracted a return of the Crouch family. Rowing was huge in Pittwater, and Sydney, and had been for decades, and the Pittwater Aquatic Club were an integral part of arrangements, and rowing an added attraction for those who thrived in aquatic sports. Among the announcements we find a relative of Ken's is a key organiser:

Residents of Pittwater and Newport have arranged a regatta for tomorrow. The programme is a long one, and comprises sailing races for local boats, 14ft to. 18ft, local fishing boats, all-comers 16ft skiffs handicap,14ft to 24ft sailing race, sailing race for youths 18 years and under; single-scull race youths 18 years and under,  single-scull races for ladies and youths, double sculls for gentlemen, double sculls for ladies, ladies and gents, double sculls, motor boat handicap, old buffers' handicap (50 years and over). Numerous entries have been received, and Miss Gladys Lloyd and Mr. John Roche (the hon secretaries)anticipate a good day's sport. AQUATICS. (1907, March 15). Evening News (Sydney, NSW : 1869 - 1931), p. 2. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article115216198

The first ladies double sculling championship of New South Wales held here is to be started on the Parramatta River tomorrow afternoon. Ladies from various parts of the State— Sydney, Manly, Port Macquarie, Newcastle, and Port Hacking-r-are to compete for the honour. The three preliminary heats, in which ten crews will take part, will be rowed tomorrow over a course a mile and a half in length, on the Parramatta River, starting at Abbotsford and finishing at the Mortlake Picnic Ground. The prizes are £20, £1, and £3 for the final, which is to be rowed on the ex-champion’s day, Saturday next. Most of the crews; assembled at €“ Mortlake yesterday, and drew for the boats, ex-champion Peter Kemp drawing for each of the crews. The boats to be used are equal 16ft pleasure boats, provided by the committee. Several of _the crews got afloat and did a preliminary spurt, and the majority of- them showed plenty of dash, more,, in fact, than was expected from thefair scullers, who comprise the cream o£ the districts they represent. The various heats are as follow: —First heat: Misses Gertie and Kitty Lewis(North Sydney), Misses Ruth and Daisy Bailey(Abbotsford), Mrs. Woodbridge and Mrs. Hyde(Stockton, Newcastle). Second heat: Misses Edith and Nellie Counsel! (Glebe Point), Misses V. and A. Granger(Manly), Mrs. Greenwood and Miss Hughes(Mayfield, Newcastle). Third heat: Misses Gladys and Hilda Lloyd (Manly), Misses Ruby and Jessie Bouchier(Port Hacking), Misses Edith and Mabel Herbert (Port Macquarie), Mrs. S. Green and Mrs. Young (Darlinghurst). .First and second in each heat are to start in the final. Each of the crews have big reputations, and some of the finest racing of the week should be seen to-morrow. In addition to the ladies races, the famous ex-champions will parade in their colours during the afternoon, as a preliminary to their great race on Saturday. Two steamers, the Greyhound and Lady Maning, will follow to-morrow's contests, and, as advertised in another column, these will leave Fort Macquarie at 2.30 p.m. Mortlake Picnic Grounds, from where the whole of the racing may be viewed, have been placed at the committee's disposal, and may be reached by the Sydney Ferries' fleet from Circular Quay, or by train to Burwood. Particulars of the Sydney Ferries' timetable appear elsewhere. LADIES DOUBLE CHAMPIONSHIP. (1906, July 31). Evening News (Sydney, NSW : 1869 - 1931), p. 6. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article114092327

MISS GLADYS LLOYD, Of Manly, who rows with Miss Hilda Lloyd In the Ladies' Double Sculling Championship on August 1 and 4. SUPERINTENDENT WEBB'S VIEWS (1906, July 22). The Sunday Sun (Sydney, NSW : 1903 - 1910), p. 9. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article231874893

The Lloyd girls came last in their heat but clearly had a passion for rowing. Peter Kemp was one of seven Australians who each won the World Sculling Championship (Professional) between 1876 and 1907. Born on the banks of the Hawkesbury River near Windsor, New South Wales, on 15 November 1853 he was born to row that river. In 1873 he and his brother Thomas won a double sculls race of four miles in a time of thirty-three minutes. 

Peter Kemp (rower). (2013, September 7). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Kemp_(rower)&oldid=571880727

ROWOHL - LLOYD April 30, 1917 -  at St Stephens church Phillip-street, by the Rev. John Ferguson, F.G.A., eldest son of the late F.F.J. Rowhol of Glebe Point, to Gladys Isabel, fifth daughter of  W.F. Lloyd of Manly and Bayview. Family Notices. (1917, June 30). The Sydney Morning Herald(NSW : 1842 - 1954), p. 12. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15748001

Ferdinand and Gladys had a daughter, born in December 1923, who in turn had a daughter. Gladys lived until 1982. 

Ken's great grandfather passed away in 1927:

LLOYD.—May 15, at his residence, The Shells, Church Point, Pittwater, William Fredrick Lloyd, in his 80th year. Family Notices (1927, May 16). The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954), p. 10. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16366289 

LLOYD-The Funeral of the late WILLIAM FREDERICK LLOYD, of Pittwater, will leave Our Private Mortuary, 02 The Corso, Manly, THIS DAY (Tuesday), at 2.30 o'clock, for the Manly Cemetery. T. WAUGH and CO., Funeral Directors. Family Notices (1927, May 17). The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954), p. 9. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16381562 

MR. W. F. LLOYD.

Mr. William Frederick Lloyd, whose death took place at his home in Pittwater last week, was a well-known resident of Manly and outlying districts for a quarter of a century. Born in Sydney eighty years ago, he was for many years in the service of Mr F. Lassetter, of George-street. He was one of the senior officers, when he retired to start a business for himself, as a commercial broker. His father, for a considerable period, was superintendent of the Government Dock at Cockatoo.

The late Mr. Lloyd, was a nephew of the late Mr. George Alfred Lloyd, of Elizabeth Bay. The deceased was a keen cricketer in his younger days and always a most enthusiastic fisherman. MR. W. F. LLOYD. (1927, May 24). The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954), p. 12. Retrieved from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16375320 

Further Reading available

La Corniche Bayview  Bayview Wharf

Mark Foy 

Pittwater Regattas of 1907 and 1908

The Bayview Tea Gardens 1920 to 1923 When Run By Thomas Edward And Annie Newey (Nee Costello) 

Early Bayview - insights courtesy Don Taylor and Margaret Tink 

Profile; Cedric Vincent Williams. History; Early Pittwater Paddlers, Oarsmen, Rowers And Scullers: The Williams

Motor Car Tours To And In Pittwater Show Us The Way This Place Once Was

Pittwater Fishermen: Great Mackerel, Little Mackerel (Wilson's Beach - Currawong) and The Basin 

John Roche   Katherine Mary Roche - Pittwater Matriarch  John Collins of Avalon